Add Your Own. 41 Responses to “State of London’s Independent Media.”
  • On balance, a very well-written critique. Your observation about my own slowdown is certainly accurate, the consequence of trying to burn too many candles at the same time, and is something that I plan to improve.

    My commitment to keeping Londoners informed about local issues (esp. the ones you mentioned) is as strong as ever. I will continue to seek out other contributors (since a mix of opinion/perspective is healthier than tunnel vision) while trying to maintain respectful communication between them.

    The only thing about your review which causes me any consternation is the reference to my logo. You don’t love my baby picture? ;)

  • Regarding altlondon.org: 1. “in a recent survey ranking local blogs [altlondon.org] tied for last place with the NortheastEnder.”

    What survey was that? Your survey? Where is it?

    2. Alt-London was established in 2001.

    3. People open new user accounts at altlondon.org on a regular basis. Had several today from Londoners I’ve heard of (namely real people, not spam bots).

    4. I’ll take your other criticisms with a grain of salt, given that you weren’t able to figure out how to access the Rotary Reading Garden (from the Central Library).

    5. You need to redesign your reply function as it’s nearly impossible to read what I’m typing here.

  • 1. It was a survey I did for a client in London.

    2. Alt-London only has posts dating back to July 2005.

    3. That’s not been my experience.

    4. I’m glad to see you are resorting to personal attacks. Very mature of you.

    5. No one else has had any complaints about it, and I’ve just had a few people check it on their systems without any issue. Maybe lower your screen resolution or make an appointment with an optometrist.

  • Nice summary of the London blogs. I think the main problem with local content on the web is that there just aren’t enough people involved in it. Almost all of these sites are rarely updated, and offer only a handful of viewpoints. There should be enough tech-savvy people in London to create at least one site that’s top-notch in both content and design.

    P.S. If anyone wants to hire / beg me for contributions to local media, check out my kickass writings about London: http://phronko.blogspot.com/search/label/london%20ontario

  • 1. I take it that you’re not willing to share the parameters and scope of the survey? In any event, I’ll leave it at that.

    2. Alt-London was started in 2001. Wayback Machine retains some early articles and comments; I’m forever deleting past articles to keep the archives at about 850 pages. Since I took over the site in early December of 2006, I’ e deleted more than 600 pages. The previous webmaster undertook similar activities.

    3. Contact me if you have a problem registering or activating your account. Sometimes shit happens.

    4. If you’re going to dish it out, you’d better be prepared to take it, moreso when you’re angling for web design business via your criticisms. Personal attacks? It was a simple fact that you didn’t know how to access the Rotary Reading Garden which was built by the London Public Library and is located next to the Central Library. Navigation skills are somewhat relevant here.

    4. I don’t think I’ll alter anything on my computer as this site is the only place I’ve experienced this difficulty. I’ve never encountered it before on any other website.

  • Actually, I’ve deleted more than 600 articles, not pages. Eight-hundred deleted articles sounds about right. Maybe 850.

  • 4. I’m not at all angling for business with this post, at least not from the sites I’ve reviewed. In fact I know the opposite will happen in all likelihood. As for the ad hominem, assuming that everyone knows the ins and outs of the Central Library is ridiculous.

  • Ridiculous?

    If I walked by the Rotary READING Garden and wondered how to access it (the front gate is always locked as far as I know), I think that most people would put two and two together, noting that it’s located adjacent to the Central Library.

    At least I’d take the time to find out.

    Additionally, the entrance from the Central Library can be seen through the fence on Dundas Street.

    Hilariously, Mr. Fowler deleted my post stating that the Rotary Reading Garden was accessed from the Central Library because I’m not posting using my real name.

    He’s also deleted other news-related posts because he says he couldn’t (or didn’t take the time to) confirm the information. So It’s not only Mr. Dimitrie that has deleted posts.

    London Fog has also deleted (innocuous) posts because they, apparently, can’t stand differing points of view. I have one post on the Fog now where I provide information about Joe O’Neil who Fog administrator MapMaster seems to think is just some meddling heritage activist when in fact he is the chairperson of the provincially mandated London Advisory Committee on Heritage (LACH) which provides recommendations to London’s Planning Committee and City Council thereafter.

    I suspect my helpful post on the murky Fog will be deleted in due course. Ultimately, I don’t really care, but if you’re going to debate the merit and habits of admins on sites, accuracy and the full picture is relevant.

  • Yes, ridiculous and all the more telling of how you think about way finding and user design.

    Again, you are assuming that I’ve even walked past the garden, and wanted/wondered how to get in.

    As for other sites policies on deleting articles, doing so becuase of inaccurate information, and doing so to prevent other view points are two different things.

  • John Leschinski Says:
    August 8, 2008 at 7:22 pm

    I know where the Rotary garden is, I just have no idea on how you’d access it.

  • Your point is? I replied to a post about the garden, I didn’t all of a sudden walk past and have a desire to enter it. Nor have I been to the garden since that comment.

  • Wow Butch, rather then taking in some constructive criticism about your site, you decided you are an expert on everything and start a pissing match. No wonder your site is a mess.

  • I agree with John on most points, I guess I got the more favorable review (http://blogldn.com) of the bunch so maybe that’s my slant. Anyways, personally I find a lot of sites WAY to confusing (and yes ALT-London is one of the worst offenders IMO), there is stuff all over! That is my opinion and BlogLDN being my site I can make it look as “very basic” as I want.

    My idea was to make the site simple to navigate and make the content the focus of the page. Other items like the share icons are my preference, I’ve though about changing to a slimmer plugin but I think that with the icons in view “n00b5” will click on them, thus promote the site, more often.

    My major downfall is simple I don’t have time to get new content up. Phronk, I’d love to have you write, feel free to register anytime and I’ll set your permissions so you can!

    I’ve also had a new idea to help get more content to the site, a HUGE thanks to John for the idea. Basically you’ll be seeing Daily Digest’s of blog post from London Bloggers that I think are worth checking out. Hope it works out and Thanks!

  • Thanks Bill, glad I could help out. I still think you should look at the contrast issue, but you are right the rest of it is personal preference.

  • What’s “way finding and user design”?

    Now you’re assuming I posted inaccurate information on Greg’s site that he deleted. Not true and he knows it.

    The information I posted was 100-per-cent accurate, was fully documented (with easily attainable public information) and was subsequently covered by the LFP, albeit in a skimpy manner because they hate getting scooped and lamely attempted to downplay the significance of the story.

    The story had also been posted on altlondon.org for several weeks or months and to this day remains unchallenged by the subjects of the story who’ve read it many times, as well as its updates. Today the stories has had several thousand page views.

    Members of city council, as well as city staff have also confirmed the accuracy of the fully documented story ages ago.

    Bottom line: many local sites act like boneheaded censors but are often the first to criticize others, as in the pot calling the kettle black. Yet you single out Mr. Dimitrie.

  • I’ve seen multiple instances of people complaining about the censorship at the NortheastEnder. I have not seen any, other then the ones you’ve posted here, about the others.

  • John,
    Thank you for this list of media sources. There are a few that I hadn’t heard of before.

  • I won’t sit here and claim to be an expert on usability and/or design, but the critiques made by John on the sites above are warranted and certainly don’t require the types of attacks that Butch has posted.

    Butch: Shut up. Point is, your site looks horrible and is difficult to even look at. NOTHING John said about your site is either incorrect or slanderous. And if you have something serious to say, try taking it up with John directly instead of posting idiotic rants on his site.

  • Nice post, Derek. You must be one of London’s literary all-stars. Geez, our education has failed us big-time. We should do the comprehension thing all over again with the young ‘us.

  • Nice reply Butch/Barry. It seems you fail to recognize constructive criticism when you see it and acknowledged by others who have also received the same type of criticism. You are the one who chose to dismiss Mr. Leschinki’s criticisms of your site based his lack of even LOOKING for the entrance to the Rotary Reading Garden. Why is that so amusing to you? How does that make what he had to say about Alt-London any less true or useful?

    No, instead you sit there and bang away at your keyboard making yourself look like an absolute imbecile. Right now I’m sitting on a monitor with a resolution of 1024x768. And you know what? Your site doesn’t fit width-wise when I view it in either Firefox or Internet Explorer.

    You seem to assume that other people assume a lot of things about you when, in reality, they’re not. The comments made on John’s site make no direct allegations to anyone deleting comments or content. He relayed that sites have been “known” to delete comments and content in the past, which is likely information that’s been relayed to him. Stop with the “The world is out to get me” attitude and take constructive criticism like a man. If your site was easy to read and navigate, your readership might just skyrocket and perhaps your “plot to take over city hall” might actually come to fruition.

  • Wow, I’m glad to see that things have gotten way out of control here. To be honest I don’t really see why things should have gotten out of control.

    People are open to their honest opinion, aren’t they? and as long as these thoughts are not direct personal shots at someone I really don’t see the issue.

    My thoughts are this:

    Before even reading John’s post here I held the opinion that each of the sites listed could use some work, some more than others. I am in no way a web designer or anything of the such, but I am a consumer and if something isnt pleasing to the eye then I’m not going to read it.

    With that said I find The London Fog and Alt-London to be far too cluttered in designed. It is a hard time to find the information that I want and if I do manage to find it it is once again cluttered with more “garbage”. This is not a characteristic of these two blogs alone, to be honest I find this same problem at From My Bottom Step from time to time, however, at FMBS it seems to be something that is intermittent (based on Post Content) and not a continual distract from a design perspective.

    As for the actual content of the sites I have listed, I cannot make a comment on that as people are free to post what they will, however, you need to be careful with what you post as that will turn me away as well.

    This open dialogue took a turn for the worse at some point and I’m somewhat ashamed to be calling myself a Londoner when others share that same title and apparently aren’t aware of this simple concept called respect.

  • Derek, you are blathering on like an idiot, not making any sense. Stick a sock in it until you at least conduct yourself like you’ve got your primary school diploma. And stay away from altlondon.org.

    I’d prefer literate people stop by. You don’t appear to qualify.

    These friends of yours, John?

  • Barry, if you are unable to understand what Derek is saying, maybe you should look at doing an upgrade course for your reading comprehension skills. You’d have to be quite illiterate to not be able to grasp what he is saying.

    Maybe you should refrain from posting and looking silly until then.

  • My opinion:

    Butch: 0
    Everyone else: 1

    Seriously dude, you’re acting like a baby, over something as mundane as web design. You claim to value literacy, then call people idiots and tell them to stick a sock in it. Maybe that’s brilliant prose on the playground, but in the real world, literacy also involves having something intelligent to express.

  • What’s the average age of this little group of mouthpieces in here? Twenty, 21? I’ve had more meaningful conversations with wounded dogs.

    Ol’ Johnny boy complains about a perceived personal attack, then he allows it to run rampant on his site. Then he censors my comments but let’s the zombies have free rein. Lots of integrity in here, eh?

    Phronk gets a, as Greg would call it, “nick” then ol’ Johnny denies me that. Who cares. Go back to school, kids.

    Ol’ Johnny boy can criticize but can’t take it some measured criticism on his own. Sad but true.

  • Butch.

    Please, for your benefit, refrain from making any further comments, as you are doing nothing more than digging yourself an even larger hole.

  • Interesting that you’re willing to start personal attacks, but not receive them. Grow up.

  • Whatever you say, Ken, er a Greg. That media meetup crowd must be a real barrel of laughs.

  • I love that I work in London, spend a lot of evenings in London, go out to bars in London, and yet whenever I want I can go back to my sweet, sweet home in Dorchester.

    And, just a bit of a note, the contrast could come up a bit in the comment section, but it’s not as much of an issue as the points that John has brought up about the blog designs.

    Kudos for a good article, John.

  • If there was actually censorship going on, which I think is what Butch is trying to say, I’d be right there with him. However, he seems to be able to speak his mind just fine here.

    I’m still baffled over what one person’s inability to find the entrance to a garden, or our perceived average age, has to do with web site design issues. Makes for a hilarious comment thread though.

  • I have deleted quite a few comments, his and others, after telling him to knock it off. I have also edited his user name with his real name.

  • Ah. Well then, maybe I have a sliver of sympathy for Butch’s position. Censoring and identity altering wouldn’t be my style, but hey, it’s your blog, so it’s your rules.

  • I think you’re pretty much spot on with everything. Some of the offenders wouldn’t be so bad if it wasn’t for the horrid designs.

    Then again, we’re both kind of design snobs ;)

  • Hey, I thought the debate-conversation in here was quite civil initially, then John took offence at my critique of a few of his comments, including coming to the defence of Dimitrie’s blog, saying that there’s censorship on numerous local blogs — including London Fog and this one.

    Pot, kettle, black, right?

    For example, John stated (since deleted) that if I was going to critique him sentence by sentence that I should probably move along. In any words he’s doing what he criticized Mr. Dimitrie for.

    Then the still-wet-behind-the ears jackals rolled in with the outright personal attacks. Ken er a Greg really started it rolling and it went downhill from there with Derek etc. Greg can’t handle criticism either.

    Whatever. Pimple on a drum significance. Screwing with people’s ID is also a bit of joke, but if that’s the best they can do, life’s a bowl of cherries. I’ve had rougher times with stuffed panda bears. At least you got some traffic on your site.

  • If you are unable to see the comparison of censorship on a private business’ blog, and a site funded by the city as a voice for Northeast London then I don’t think anyone can help you.

    I don’t see Greg, or anyone else that I reviewed here “unable to handle criticism” other then you. And being over the hill doesn’t make you any better then anyone else commenting on this article.

    If this is so insignificant to you then I don’t expect to see you continuing to comment. Good luck with your site.

  • Kevin:

    I find this same problem at From My Bottom Step from time to time

    I’d appreciate hearing anything that you have to say about clutter or anything else.

  • Dear “Mr. McLarty”:

    Whatever you say, Ken, er a Greg.

    Let’s get the insinuation out of the way, right up front. Prior to this comment, the only one that I’ve made was the original one. Made to John, under my own name. Nor do I understand the reason for the personal attack against me here. I’ll simply offer this one rebuttal. If it continues, then I may have to take other steps in order to protect my reputation. I will not be drawn into a pissing contest here.

    “…accuracy and the full picture is relevant.”

    I agree.

    you’re assuming I posted inaccurate information on Greg’s site that he deleted. Not true and he knows it.”

    And you know that my decision not to publish it was never anything more than the fact that I didn’t have the time/energy/contacts to verify it. And the fact that you would not provide me with your contacts when I asked you to.

    [Mr. Fowler] “… also deleted other news-related posts because he says he couldn’t (or didn’t take the time to) confirm the information.”

    It’s my blog, not yours. I won’t be put into a position of legal liability just because you want me to accept carte-blanche everything that you purport to be true, especialy when you seem to expect to be given the special privilege of posting under a hider nick.

    “Mr. Fowler deleted my post stating that the Rotary Reading Garden was accessed from the Central Library because I’m not posting using my real name.”

    I’ve rejected other submissions from other anonymous sources as well. What I find dishonest about your rant is the way you neglected to mention the recent email exchange in which I invited you to re-submit everything under your real name, and you decided not to. Your choice, not mine.

    “Contact me if you have a problem registering or activating your account. Sometimes shit happens.”

    Especially on Alt since you took it over from Sean Hurley. I finally gave up asking you to fix “the problem” so that I could log on the site, after many requests for such assistance. A quick search of my records indicates that I was last allowed to post to your site 2007/01/07 (the “Van Meerbergen” thread). No, actually you posted it for me, characterizing it again as “technical problems.” Now, here you are complaining about not being able to be heard on FMBS. You’re funny!

    “Since I took over the site in early December of 2006, I’ e deleted more than 600 pages…Actually, I’ve deleted more than 600 articles, not pages. Eight-hundred deleted articles sounds about right. Maybe 850.”

    Yes, and many of those articles were mine! ROFL!

  • John, thanks for the mention. You’re right — the blog tool we use needs updating in the worst way.

  • If your goal is to transmit news and information, no matter how idiosyncratic the site or opinions might be, the site needs to be navigable. I agree with the design criticisms all around here. Altlondon is a mess. The Londoner site is a mess. For instance both have let other values creep up and dictate the expression of the content.

    As to the access to the reading garden at the Library… it is difficult to figure out. It was intended as a private access garden for users of the library. The gate system on Dundas is a compromise to exclude, as well as an answer to the criticism that it wasn’t publicly accessible.

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